By Mary Alice Murphy

The "Coffee with Camille" event started off with Gila National Forest Supervisor Camille Howes and other staff members mingling with the about 50 or so members of the public with gatherings around tables.

This author had the chance, along with others at the table where she was seated, to speak with Wilderness District Ranger Henry Provencio on several topics.

"When will the Forest Plan that has been underway for several years be finalized?" this author asked.

Provencio said it was in "its final throes. Camille is making final edits and then it will go to the regional office for approval. I anticipate it will be complete this fiscal year." [The federal fiscal year is Oct. 1- Sept 30.]

To a question about Wild and Scenic River designation, Provencio said Congress makes the designation. "We do the analyses, and we use specific parameters. Our drone utilization helps the analyses. Sen. Martin Heinrich's office will ultimately approve what we've set forward. We will implement it. Some want every single drainage designated. Our recommendations were smaller and fewer. Maybe as many as 400 acres will be designated. It has to be voted on in Congress."

On the Black Fire recovery, Provencio said: "There are cows out there that need rescuing. The floods took out fencing and enclosures. So, there's a lot of work to be done. Anything the Forest Service did, such as burnouts to stop the spread of the fire, we can contract out to fix. To get the fencing done, we figure there are about 2,000 miles of fencing by permittees to be repaired and replaced. We provide the fencing; they provide the labor. It costs $35,000 for a mile of fencing. Some fencing was burned down, but way more was washed out by the flooding. We can do the BAR (burned area reclamation) long term. We can apply for funding in March, but the issue is not money. We don't have contractors or the materials. It will cost billions in the state, with the Black Fire and the Hermit's Peak/Calf Canyon Fire in the northern part of the state. Our contracting is broken. Eight months later, we haven't gotten gates and other materials. This is an emergency. We will be working with the state. We are starting to see some funding come down here from the state."

Mike Fugagli, who was at the table, asked what the problem was with the lack of fencing.

Provencio said cattle have escaped from their ranches. "We are going to attempt to put collars on cattle so we can move them and keep them out of the rivers. With feral, unbranded cattle we are going to catch them or kill them. We received 6,000 comments on the proposal to deal with the feral cattle. We will have a meeting shortly, and we may have to change some of the analyses. We are still going through comments. Most are positive on what we want to do, but there is not too much money for it. We did find things in the comments that we hadn't heard before."

Fugagli asked if tax money is normally used to pay for fencing.

Provencio said: "We do a lot of monitoring of the permittees and mostly they maintain their fencing. My permittees have been very cooperative. It came across to us that it will take cowboys riding every day for weeks to determine how much fencing they have lost. Plus, water can be limiting and so they can feed their cattle. I will keep on hammering to get more help, because it's not acceptable to have no contractors available."

Carol Ann Fugagli and her husband Mike briefly talked to this reporter about their recent receipt of a composting grant for UGWA (Upper Gila Watershed Alliance) for food security and soil health from the Commission for Environmental Cooperation (CEC) a three-country consortium working on environmental issues. There were 400 applications and "we received one of only five awarded to each country. We were blown away."

Carol Ann Fugagli said their contact is through the CEC, although it is also cooperating with the EPA. "The grant is called environmental justice for climate. It's to prepare vulnerable communities for the worst effects of climate change." Mike said they are trying promote food security. Carol Ann said they were focusing on food security and carbon sequestration, diverting organic material from the landfill.

[Editor's Note: At this point, before the details of the CEC grant were learned, Forest personnel got everyone's attention.

Howes then led off the discussion among GNF staff members and the public by asking for questions from those attending.

Not unexpectedly, the first question addressed the feral cattle in the forest and wilderness.

Howes noted that feral cattle have been on the forest at least since 1976. "This particular bunch has been there for quite a number of years. We have hired people for nine gathers with horses and cowboys. It has been somewhat successful. The public input required by our NEPA process has been powerful. It's handy for us as we prepare our environmental analysis, which often leads to decisions we need to make. We have limitations. We need to determine what kind of ground disturbance has been caused, and where they are doing it. That is part of our mandate for resource management. Because of our failure to manage the feral cattle, we are in violation of the Clean Waters Act, the Endangered Species Act and the Wilderness Act. We're taking heat rounds from the public."

Joe Saenz asked what the controversy is.

Howes said the controversy is the use of lethal methods.

Saenz said the feral cattle are not traditional cattle.

A woman said the problem is the contractors get the money and the money runs out before they have had the opportunity to finish the job.

Howes said well over $500,000 has been spent on the efforts.

The same woman said lethal means is wasting food. "If you got somebody to ride the range and catch the cattle, they could be food for people who need food. What I've heard is the hippies are going in and getting food."

"I'm told about a small amount of the contracts that we're never had real cowboys, and others told me, they were cowboys," Howes said.

Provencio said to the woman: "I think you've mixing ranching and feral cattle. There are about 150 cows I have to deal with. The most cost-effective is not gathering them. This is not our first time trying to deal with them. We're shooting unauthorized cattle. It's not to say that we're not going to continue trying the gather them."

Mike Sauber said: "We have the first wilderness. You must be proud to have this. The vandalism in the forest has been going on since 1936 with the Taylor Grazing Act. History has shown that grazing is detrimental to the forest. It's vandalism."

[He then read a statement quickly, so little of it could be recorded with notes.]

"Overgrazing is common," Sauber alleged. "One cow forages as much as twice what two elk forage. The taxpayer is paying all the costs. Less than 200 permittees have allotments. They always mention the benefits of grazing, but it does not benefit the taxpayer. I think a biologist should oversee the environment."

Howes said she is caught between policy and regulation. "I feel cattle should be on the allotments. Yes, biologists should be part of the assessment as well as other '-ologists.' My rancher monitoring staff is at about 50 percent, because people aren't applying."

Sauber asked: "If they are not being managed, should the allotments be continued?"

"We have contracts, each for 10 years," Howes said. "We move at a glacial pace in government. And there are so many doggone rules for things we can do. I think this is the most important national forest in the entire system."

The same woman as earlier noted that the fees ranchers pay should pay for the staff to monitor. The rules were written 120 years ago, in 1906. "Our grazing fee is to pay what is laid out in the Public Lands Improvement Act. You have to protect us as the rancher. We protect the soil and the water and the wildlife."

Grumbles could be heard refuting that claim and trying to interrupt her.

Another woman asked about the Bear Creek trailhead for the Continental Divide Trail and if there were any plans to finish it. She was assured there were.

A man said he wanted to talk about hydrology. The one thing that has happened with climate change is the long-term drought and the resulting fires, he alleged. "The increased focus should be to keep the water in the heights, so it doesn't keep running fast downhill, especially after fires.

Howes said the forest has been given an appropriation specifically earmarked for revegetation, which pertains to soil health. "Got any projects?" she asked her colleagues. "I did get a proposal, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Recreation was not the first thing that came to mind."

Kyle Grambley, GNF recreation director, replied: "Yes, we have ideas. What matters to me is a healthy forest. We are part of a system. I am mindful of doing watershed restoration to make the system healthy. The system will then work on its own."

Another man said 4-H students did an experiment, using two trays of soil – one had soil, the other had soil with grass. The same amount of water was poured on both and they measured what came out. "We're talking about what's eating what in terms of massive fires and runoff. Change is needed."

Provencio said watershed management is holistic. "That's why we're here, because of our love of the land. I've never seen a single contract that says 'We will overgraze.' Absolutely, we have not managed well. We are doing our best to manage holistically. We want to manage the grasslands and manage the allotments. Ranchers help us manage the lands; environmentalist help us manage the land. It's about what we do tomorrow, not about what we did 30 years ago. It's not simple restoration; it's not logging like we did 30 years ago. We have to reset the system ecologically and get it into its natural resiliency."

A man said he understands why the Black Fire was so bad. "It was so thick, you couldn't walk through it. Cattle were not there to keep the understory out. The grazing by the cattle owned by the ranchers put water in the watershed. Yes, there are some that overgraze, but they aren't managing their allotments correctly. Where areas had grazing and were well managed, the fire stopped at the edge. Ranchers are our biggest stewards of the land. If they do not manage the grass, they have no livelihood. Cattle keep the land healthy by grazing grass and the understory. They have higher protein content, with proper grazing of natural grasses. The cattle spread grass seed through their manure. It's a balance. The fires are bigger because there are no ranchers and cattle there to manage the land."

Saenz noted that cattle need to be kept out of the wilderness.

The same man said he was with Kit Laney when his cattle kept the underbrush out, and when the federal government removed his cattle that's when the brush got so thick and why there was a major fire.

Mike Fugagli agreed that fire suppression has caused great problems with fires. "The major fires are a result of bad management and climate change. This is a time of rapid and challenging climate change. We're at 1.3 degrees above the baseline global temperature. We're seeing our food be destroyed by insects. Trees will die repeatedly from hydrologic changes. We are in a global climate crisis with massive biodiversity loss. Is the Forest Service working on the same old, instead of addressing the climate emergency? It is rapidly changing. I appreciate the old uses of the forest." He pointed toward the rancher.

Saenz said he too was around when Kit Laney had an allotment. "It was badly trampled land."

A woman said ungulates would take over the browsing without the cattle.

Russell Dobkins said he farms on the Gila River. "I wanted to know how things work on a molecular level. We had the big fire on the Black Range. The ash settled in the ditches. I took a sample. It's full of nutrients and good to fertilize with. I dumped it in a pile and then it hardened so badly that a neighbor used it to plaster walls. The ash sealed the watershed and the cottonwoods died on the San Francisco and Gila rivers. The ash could seal the ditches. A man working in Jemez said he had to be careful when the rains came because the water would wash away and not soak in. Ash is a disaster in the Gila. The headgates are more than 15 feet under the water gauge. The river and the bridge were torn up. And those who farm don't know if they can keep the ditches. It was caused by an atmospheric river coming from the Pacific Ocean. The polar vortex is expanding. Climate change is here and now. It's happening. I studied the toxicity of fluoride because it is naturally occurring here. It was used as an anesthetic. I saw in the news that the fire fighting foam has PFAs in it that is now in the water and killing the fish. It's not safe to eat or drink. The red slurry is ammonium phosphate, and it is a deposit on creatures that died. Calcium phosphate is mined as a fertilizer and used to put out fires. The fish will be toxic."

A woman said she lives off a BLM easement. "I would like to know the engineering assessment estimate or how we can get help on fixing our road."

Provencio said: "We have an easement through your property. We haven't figured out yet who is responsible for the road. The easement with the Forest Service we have to prioritize. We have only one road through there and it's a huge fire area."

The same woman said: "We've lots 40 feet of our property into the riverbed."

Howes said: "We are receiving financing for fire damaged infrastructure."

The woman said people had been camping in her yard.

Howes reminded the attendees that if they didn't have time to ask their questions, pads of paper and pens were on the tables to "tell us your questions."

Nick Prince said he was wondering about next season and asked what resources the Forest Service would have.

"We talked about collaborating with groups," Howes said. "We want to be as communicative as possible."

Dobkins said there should be a show and tell for landowners to protect their property from fire.

Another man asked if there were any tree-planting projects on the Gila River.

Bill Bradford said the mining activities in the forest can affect the spotted owl. "Are you monitoring the drilling? Horizontal drilling can drill under the forest land off private land."

"Yes, we do surveys," Howes said. "They are accessible to the public. We, for sure, hold the owl in high regard. Our responsibility is to protect endangered species. As to drilling, this is the first time I've heard that. It encourages me to call BLM because they have jurisdiction under the grass."

A man suggested that a volunteer program for the Forest Service might be of help. "I'm a willing one. We all have ideas. We want to protect the land, but we need to be objective and serve everyone. We need ungulates; we need cows; we need more good volunteers in a Forest Service volunteer program."

Howes said she knows there is never a shortage of people willing to help.

The rancher said that due to the fire and its destruction, "I heard you may contract out. There will be flooding damage for years from the Black Fire. For 14 days, people were stranded. I pushed out a road for them. I would like to be a contractor for you. Where do the contractors go to help you and those who need the help?'

Howes asked him to leave his information. "We are trying to host an in-person event with local contractors. We will have a workshop on how to get into the SAM (System for Award Management) government program, so we can build capacity."

A man said: "We're trying to do a regional program. Crews are good, but not enough. The next five years, there will be continuing problems until the ground recovers. We want to forge a relationship with local contractors. We need a longer-term fix. The pain is getting into the program, but you are needed."

"I can only hope this meeting shows you we are trying," Howes said. "We are putting forth our best effort to be accessible. It's a dance of policy and bureaucracy. We're public servants. We're trying. The priority was the trapped people who were stuck on McKnight."

The rancher's wife said no one showed up in "that fix. We need communication."

A GNF staff person said to the person who was speaking earlier. "Whoever is in the area does the job."

A woman, who said she lives above Pinos Altos wanted to say that the workers in the area thinning are doing a wonderful job.

"We have money," Howes said. "We need more employees. We are looking at utilizing other funding to benefit other organization's employees. So as not to be stuck with payroll, we are cut to the quick right now. We're going as hard as we can. We're just like the land, not as resilient as we need to be. Part of my background is in strategic planning. Half of it is to determine what we don't need to do, so we can prioritize."

The session ended, with some people sticking around to talk more to GNF staff.